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A Marvelous Work and a Wonderful Sequel

November 11, 2009

I recently stumbled onto an LDS blog that was discussing the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon.  In the comments section some advocates for Christopher Marc Nemelka showed up and started encouraging the Mormons to read The Sealed Portion that Christopher claims to have translated.  They urged Mormons to read it with the Moroni promise in mind, “with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ…”

The discussion that ensued reminded me a little of the discussions we have on this and other blogs, but the tables were turned and the Mormons were the ones giving reasons for why they were not interested in reading Christopher’s alleged translation or why, after reading it, they did not have a testimony of it.

One of the advocates for Christopher Nemelka accused the Mormons of being closed to new revelation.   She said, “You all sound exactly like those who cried…’A Bible, a Bible we have got a Bible.'”

It was interesting to see the Mormons on the other side of the fence in this debate, using scriptures and methods often employed by those they sometimes accuse of being “anti-Mormon.”  The blog administrator brought up I John 4:1, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”  He also referred people to some “anti-Christopher Marc Nemelka” articles.

One of the Mormons used the argument that if God was going to reveal the sealed portion he would do so through one of the authorized channels of the LDS church.  The Nemelkian response was that God had called Joseph Smith from obscurity to lead the Restoration and that God doesn’t lead by succession or election, but that he always speaks to his prophets by visitations from angels. Christopher Nemelka claims to have been visited by angels and continues to speak to angels so, according to the enlightened ones who have read The Sealed Portion, Christopher Nemelka trumps all the so-called prophets of the LDS church (ever since Joseph Smith) as they have not been visited by angels.*

A few of my own reasons for rejecting the BOM paralleled an LDS commenter (Richard) who gave this reply as to why he did not have a testimony of the TSP (The Sealed Portion):

I heard about the TSP and started reading the “Lost 116 pages”. As soon as I came to the part where the mother was concerned whether or not her daughter would remain “single” (the word single is used) I got this sickening feeling and the imprint on my mind.. THIS IS NOT TRUE. I then did a search on the word “single” in the Book of Mormon and it popped up 3 times. Alma 49: 23, 3 Ne. 13: 22 & Morm. 8: 15. Not once was this word used to mean a woman who was not married. If this was the lost pages of the Book of Mormon.. then the same “flow” of words by the person writing it would be the same.. and the same for the time period. The fact that this word stuck out like a beacon light to me let me know I need not go any further. The spirit has testified to me concerning this.

It’s interesting to me that the word single convinced him that Christopher’s translation is a fraud when he has a testimony of words like Anti-Nephi-Lehies. The difference I see between Richard and I is one of effort.  I’ve continued to study, even after my initial “AHA” moments, and all the “THIS IS NOT TRUE” imprints on my mind, and all the words that have stuck out to me as odd and out of place, the dispensations that are out of order, and all the passages that are out of sync with the gospel presented by Jesus and the original apostles.  Not because I am an investigator, but to try to improve my understanding.  I don’t blame Richard at all, though, for not putting in more effort.  There are some obvious reasons that Christopher Marc Nemelka does not qualify as a true prophet of God.  Some of the same reasons, in my view, that Joseph Smith was ineligible for that title as well.

Richard’s comments in the following paragraph jumped out at me, though, because I might as well have written this.  His view of Christopher’s translation meshes almost exactly with my view concerning the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith.  If you just replace his uses of the name “Chris” with “Joseph” in the following paragraph you will be able to see my concerns with the BOM:

Now.. just like many other religions have truth to them.. so does some of what is written by Chris have truth as well. But it is because of the deception that I dismiss the rest of his truth. Even Satan tells the truth most of the time. For if he lied ALL the time.. then truly no one would believe him and he could not beguile anyone. But he tells what truth he needs to get you to believe.. and then mixes it with lies and that makes the deception. You will read some of the concepts presented by Chris and they will ring true…  But to take everything that man says as truth is not a wise measure…

I agree with Richard’s assessment of Satan’s strategies.  What about you?  Does this random internet guy represent the Mormon view on how Satan deceives?


*  I wonder if this blogger has ever seriously pondered Galatians 1:8-9 in relation to her theology on angelic visitations.

48 Comments leave one →
  1. faithoffathers permalink
    November 11, 2009 4:35 pm


    You said “It’s interesting to me that the word ‘single’ convinced him that Christopher’s translation is a fraud when he has a testimony of words like Anti-Nephi-Lehies.”

    You are implying that the language of the BOM doesn’t match up to the Bible, correct? And that the difference should warrant dismissal of the BOM?

    There is a huge body of work on the language of the BOM and its relation to that of the Bible. I believe that from a purely objective, “scientific” standpoint, this is the source of undeniable proof of the antiquity of the BOM.

    Consider just a few very brief examples:

    From Daniel Peterson:

    Names: “Of all the names of persons mentioned in the Old Testament, none are surnames. Biblical characters, whether notable or not, were known by one name only. And those names, as translated into the English language, neither use the letters q, x, or w nor begin with F.”

    The BOM uses no surnames as well, and none of the names in the BOM use the letters q, x, or w nor begin with F. Pretty strange.

    Critics love joking about the whole “and it came to pass” issue and why it is used so much. Actually, the phrase is used exactly as it is used in the OT- it is rarely used in psalms, lamentations, proverbs, blessings, curses, prayers, speeches, and dialogues where the first-person pronoun (I or we) is used. Rather, it is used almost exclusively in histories and chronologies, like the OT. The OT scribes abandoned the phrase “and it came to pass” in favor of “and it became,” “and it was,” or “and.” Or they deleted it completely. The full phrase “and it came to pass” made through the translation in complete form 1700 times.

    Many researchers have recognized literary devices in the BOM. These “Hebraisms” are very typical of OT writing. They are quite peculiar- that is why they are called “Hebraisms.” The BOM is filled with them. It is a big topic and provides compelling evidence for the ancient origin of the BOM.

    More on names- there are many names used in the BOM that have been criticized as made-up names because they were unknown in 1830. Well, since then, very many of these “made-up” names have been demonstrated to have actually been used among the Jews and/or Egyptians. Some have argued that Joseph just mixed up a bunch of Hebrew names and lucked out. But guess what- the documents from which confirmation of these names come date back to just the right time period- 800 B.C. to about 500 B.C. Imagine that- Joseph was extremely lucky.

    You can determine the frequency with which certain words are used in a person’s writings and compare this to other writings. Take the simple word “and.” It is a good word for this because it is not context dependent- it is just so common. If you calculate the frequency of this word in the BOM and compare it to other authors- Joseph Smith, Nathan Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Spalding, as well as any other works of literature, you find big difference in frequencies. Guess what literature matches the BOM perfectly in the frequency of the word “and?” The books of the Old Testament that were contemporary with Lehi- Jeremiah, Ezekial, etc. Pretty interesting.

    Honestly, this is a huge topic and the evidence supports the antiquity of the BOM in convincing fashion. It is just that so few critics seem to be willing to go there.

    So- I disagree with you in a big way when you suggest the BOM language does not match that of the Bible.


  2. November 11, 2009 5:38 pm

    One of the Mayan stelas discovered contains a glyph that researchers have interpreted as being an introductory phrase along the lines of “it came to be” or “and so it was” or, wait for it…

    “and it came to pass.”

    Freaky how many times Joseph Smith “just got lucky.”

  3. November 11, 2009 5:38 pm

    I should have mentioned that the “it came to pass” glyph is littered throughout the writing on the stela. Very frequently used glyph.

  4. November 11, 2009 8:02 pm

    One difference not to be overlooked in comparing Biblical prophets with Joseph and Nemelka is a visitation by God:

    “And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.” (Number 12:6)

    Joseph claimed to have a visitation by God, Nemelka did not.

  5. November 11, 2009 11:19 pm


    “Many researchers have recognized literary devices in the BOM.”

    Who are these researchers? Dr. Tomas Finley points out that comparison of names from the Book of Mormon to Hebrew names transliterated into English is close to impossible; claiming that this is “scientific” proof seems to be going a little far.

    He also shows that the problem is not the frequency of “and it came to pass” the problem is the incorrect usage. For instance “behold it came to pass” is not a phrase used in Hebrew.

  6. Getterdone permalink
    November 12, 2009 2:31 am


    I guess I could say welcome and buckle in, keep hands and head in the vehicle and prepare to take breaks and shower the smell off.

    When I went to C.M.N – Christopher Marc Nemelka’s last seminar at the SLC library – Aug.29-30,09. You know I was the only one there standing for what I believe in – the LDS church. Plenty of others have great points but most just get intimated when it comes to his fast speaking ability. By all means he is a slick as it comes when spinning the words right back at you.

    I have always come off harsh and less than a “perfect” example of the LDS church. But when you see behind his curtain of tricks and lies, you realize the battle is messy – and it takes a lot to scour through it to get things clear and clean.

    The list of opponents who have confronted CMN in the past is quite lengthy, most just give up, some get bantered away, and more than you know just read and wait for their re-moments to strike again. If you don’t have access to his site, let me know I let you in under one of my pseudonyms – it is always good to have back up plans.

    If you read through some of my older posts on the Book of Mormon Online Net Blog site -you’ll see some great points made by Richard, myself, and others (and yes to be fair some of the arguments really do make his claim to divinity seem plausible) but after meeting him and watching the group at his seminar. I felt I just wanted to wake them back to reality, but they gobble the stuff up tot and tittle – with no questions. My questioning of his flow chart of authority in how his religion is structured just became waxed over with more and more nonsense – it is the most challenging Q & A I have had. I know the group members there, thought I was provoking him BUT really it never got answered. If some of the key component questions were specifically answered and spelled out by him, more people would see the fancy product of fiction by this human man.

    I introduced a literature finger print method which shows the numerical patterns in his books – including the fiction he mad up for the sealed portion. (words get numbers associated to them, numbers have multiple levels of comparison and averages to associate)

    You might get a kick out of some of the questions I posed to his Public Affairs Director – Julie Taggert – “Add my witness” is her screen name.

    I have always asked for a one on one Q & A with CMN, obcourse with it recorded but they would never commit to it – always my fault one thing or another – they said.

    My favorite is his WUF foundation, which he dissolved the corporation and took full personal control of it, oh ya don’t ask for a donation receipt (he wont do it). Did I mention his under the radar approach to avoiding child support to his 7+ kids.

    Yes, his followers would say reading this, see he can only attack his personal character. Well I can switch gears like I have so many times before and point out many of my questions of his list of beliefs, heavenly visitors, grammar irregularities, his city weekly article is my favorite, and his foot washing baptism he had on the last day of his seminar.

    Did fail to mention before he will talk to anyone he expects you to have read his complete works, talk about giving up your free will (free will is huge thing with him). I just wanted answers before donating my mind’s real estate to such a cause. I mean even on his Yahoo group site, they will kick you in the hard drive if you profess to have read the books and really haven’t – No NO bad truth seeker. lol

    I would enjoy just talking to you in person, I work by the U in Slc. Pretty free schedule with notice. I could do reenactments at the Library, I am sure I could find a pony tail wig and white surfer shirt – the rest is just BS. Easy order to fill, now that might make a good You Tube Video mmm, mmmm.

    Look into his Hyrum Smith reincarnation statements, his doanted Smith family burial plot, his short stories of the “brothers” (3 nephites) road trip, John the Revelator’s emails, wait till you get the Nanotechnology info on his Urim & Thummim. So much crap in CMN’s creations of literary works.

    Drop me a line

    Chris H.

  7. November 12, 2009 2:57 am

    While I don’t wish to see people led astray, on an ideological level, I’d be fascinated if CMN were able to parlay his following into a fast-growing movement that aggressively proselytes from Mormonism’s base and brags about baptizing an LDS ward every week.

    How would the LDS church react? Would it benignly acknowledge the CMN group’s status as fellow Mormons and followers of the prophet Joseph Smith in spite of its disagreement with them?

    Or would they denounce them as a counterfeit version of Mormonism, argue that “Nemelkites aren’t Mormons!”, insist that Nemelkites do not follow the true teachings of Joseph Smith, and disseminate literature and videos expressing these points?

    Part of me wishes we could find out.

  8. Jenny Lind permalink
    December 3, 2009 6:31 am

    FYI, Bridget, CMN who several here have made ridiculous claims regarding, offered the retranslated 116 page Lost Manuscript and the sealed portion (upon completion in 2004) to the LDS church free of charge, with an offer to keep his identity anonymous, and help incorporate its tenets into the church…i.e–do unto others as you would have them do unto you, love your enemies do good to those who despitefully use you and persecute you etc., etc., seek first the kingdom of God (novel huh!).

    How do you think the church responded? Not even with a courtesy “thanks, but no thanks”.

    It is baffling to me that many former missionaries who begged investigators to “just read the book [of M.]”…themselves refuse to “just read the book” but swallow hook, line and sinker others jaded and jealous views—who themselves have not read the TSP!

    You can’t read that book and NOT KNOW of its veracity.. it’s clear no one here has read it despite their foolish and uninformed claims.

    But to answer your Q, when people actually read TSP, yes, they definitely leave the LDS Church, ( if they are not ex’ed out first).

    An extra big bonus is they suddenly have an extra day of the week and a 10%+ raise.

    Try it—you might be surprised.

  9. December 3, 2009 6:44 pm

    Accepting the TSP would be a disaster, and all churches would do well to excommunicate anyone who did because to believe in REINCARNATION IS A SIN!

  10. Jenny Lind permalink
    December 4, 2009 5:25 am

    Then “Sealed-Not” why does the D & C talk about eternal “lives”.

    Why did J.Smith say, “If you knew who I WAS there isn’t a man on this stand who would not rise up and kill me”?

    And besides how do you know it would be a “disaster”….you haven’t read it…you’ve only cherry picked it.

    Is that how you read the B of M too?

  11. December 4, 2009 6:47 pm

    A “life” is an assignment by God, with a purpose involved, by God. Other “lives” would represent other assignments, each with its own purpose.

    Existence as we know it, is but one, no doubt there are other existences beyond our imagination, so when we pontificate something new, and it revolves around this existence (the only one we know) it betrays us, and shows we are its source, not God.

    FYI, we have read the ENTIRE book, so others know what it’s about without getting caught:

    When I read the BoM, I compared it with the Bible. When I read the sealed-not portion, I likewise compared it with the Bible and Book of Mormon. If you will do the same, you will find not a single doctrine from SP in agreement.

  12. Jenny Lind permalink
    December 5, 2009 4:03 pm

    “‘We’ have read the entire book”? You mean you each took a few chapters, as I said, to cherry pick through and refute it.

    As I asked before is that how you all read the B of M too?

    If this is some fly by night deal and this CMN character nothing more than some “Cody Judy” then why do “we” spend so much time and effort on refuting it or trying to tear it apart?

    Won’t he too, just crumble by the wayside and no one will ever hear of him again if, as you say, it is such a “disaster”?

  13. Jenny Lind permalink
    December 5, 2009 4:08 pm

    One more question, why is it so important and imperative for you to give people your thoughts about a subject or book rather than let them read it and decide for themselves?

    You remind me of my father whose philosophy was, “if you need an opinion—I’ll give it to you!”

    Isn’t that contrary to free agency?

  14. December 5, 2009 8:00 pm

    Jenny Lind,

    Whether those comments were directed at us, or other posters it doesn’t matter, here’s our response:

    1. I read the entire thing.

    2. It does not line up with scripture.

    My motives were, to stand up for truth, meaning, if it contained tuth, I would side with it, if it did not, I would make a point of identifying the errors so others won’t have to wade through so much of it just to find out what it’s about.

    So, on our web site, we have done that.

    Christians don’t believe “we chose our god,” or that Jesus was a polygamist, or reincarnation, homosexuality, etc.

    Our advice is to stick to the word of God as found in the Bible and Book of Mormon. This sealed-not portion was a device by the devil to lure the distraught, disgruntled, and plain bored among the LDS.

    Most lack the backbone, to call white white and black black, but if you will love Jesus more than the arm of the flesh (which this work is no matter how clever MN is), then you too will become its enemy.

  15. Stephanie permalink
    December 5, 2009 8:09 pm

    Hi Sealed Not,

    I have a question. I’m a little confused when you say “we” and “I” in the same post. Do you mean “we” in the royal sense, as in, “we are not amused?” Or do you mean “we” as a group of people? Are you more than one person posting under the same name? How many of you are using this name? Each one of you individually has read the SP?

    Sorry for all the questions. 🙂 It was just kind of confusing.


  16. December 5, 2009 8:14 pm

    Stephanie, the “we” refers to there being more than one involved. The “I” means, I can vouch for myself that I did read the entire book, plus his blog, web site(s), etc.

  17. Getterdone permalink
    December 5, 2009 11:50 pm


    First let me say no where on the ‘yahoo MWAW group site member list’ does your name appear. Second you have not signed the WUF declaration either. So then it seems even in your situation, you might have a read a book you liked but you show no “real” conviction for it or to it – except for the dialogue engagement here on this site.

    I don’t want to go to far, with out at least knowing what caliber of devotee you are.

    Do you just like CMN’s books? message?

    Are you a current or former LDS member?

    If you haven’t read some of my past posts, I bounce around pretty good just to see where his sealed subject show up. This is like a hobby of mine, clean up my backyard so to speak.

    And by all means I’ll answer to complete satisfaction any and all of your questions, but as like this is my first direst response to you I looked into the obvious “listing” locations of his followers – You haven’t signed up (at least under the Jenny Lind name). Over on Book of Mormon Net Blog – Sealed portion – lots of posts (some good debates, pretty slow right now)

    And though today/ tonight might not be the best time for engagement – I won’t lag to far from email notifications – Deal – or do you want to schedule a better time? Work hours on weekdays are out for me – no computer at work site, just a BBerry.

    I Look forward to this, what is your measure of a follower?????

    Chris H

  18. Jenny Lind permalink
    December 6, 2009 2:42 am

    I’m confused here Sealed-not….you say

    “Christians don’t believe “we chose our god,” or that Jesus was a polygamist, or reincarnation, homosexuality, etc.”

    Joseph (who I think ? you believe in and accept as a prophet) was a polygamist according to the Mormons, and if I’m not mistaken they also believe in polygamy—don’t they?

    So why can’t Christ be a polygamist if it’s OKay for JS or members of the LDS church to practice polygamy?

    Isn’t Christ the one responsible for nuns who believed they were and are married to Christ?

  19. December 6, 2009 5:56 am

    I said Christian, not Mormon. If you read the New Testament, you will see that church officers are not allowed to have more than one wife. You did not comment on the other abominations I mentioned.

  20. Getterdone permalink
    December 6, 2009 7:41 am

    Oh come now, Silly Jenny,

    IS it YOU, who doesn’t want to show your convictions? Do you believe or not?

    I mean if you were talking to CMN himself right now, he would “cut you about now”, are you going to stand or sink for him?

    Wheat – Tares …………. when you pick REAL sides it gets tough, but really. If you want to fight a case. you need to do your homework.

    IF you Jenny, believe in JESUS CHRIST – then is there should be an obvious ‘on and off switch’ on his TRUELY CHOSEN ONES?

    – I mean prophets usually go down ranting to the ends of their lives….
    – I mean the followers stick together like sheep,,, right? weak ones go first…
    – I mean every scripture prophet in our “view’s circle” has been supported by Heaven especially when the crap really gets turned on right?
    – I mean its either God or Satan if some one is really rising to the top.. right?
    – So prior to you, the Bible talks of a “double Joseph” setting things right – Agreed? – ask more later….
    – The LDS church grew unprecedented, and then the “world” reacted – so then they moved. (Satan saying OH SHIT!!! ITS TIME)

    Somewhere you and CMN need to draw the line ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————–

    All was going right, so to speak, but……I mean then the Miss. river froze for them to cross… The locusts came to SLC then also the seagulls ….and also finally the world took notice – 2002. So somewhere back in the history of the church – according to CMN, something had went astray. But really where exactly?

    Chris Marc Nemelka – even though he further claims, he is also Hyrum Smith. He/ They don’t come out and say what or where it went so very wrong. I have looked, he likes to rewrite everything, but REALLY Joseph had his stuff together. So was it BYU himself? Long and short, it did make CMN who he was. Only when CMN’s own life fell apart due to his own home issues did he leap out into “alternative ideas” (ex wife interviews….).

    I mean God/ Jesus directed Joseph – we should all be in agreeance to this – so ‘God has/ does know it all’ – Then all of a sudden BYU goes bad? And EVERYONE buys it??? And then let us go cross the USA? Come on now, if there was a doubt it would be before you left your house in middle of the winter, to go faith freedom trekking.

    And like in Holly wood, if you want to see where the “Joe’s Bar and Grill Janitor” came from, go see his Utah state Judicial Court record (free public access – it gives all of his past Utah addresses – I mean so you can feel and experience the magic atmosphere …. like in Kirtland – right?)

    So many funny parallels, I have so many to CMN it must be a divine calling to be in this position to shed light on his claims. I was born in Kirtland, NM …… was a Mormon settlement (if you were really smart you might see if they had a hospital in that little town, NO – Farmington next door did though (funny its was Joseph’s home county’s name also or was it Summit) – check the map!))

    Come on Jenny, do you really think that 6000 years of Heaven’s cycles and patterns would suddenly reroute to…. Christopher Marc Nemelka… ?

    Have you really looked into who you are tying your salvation sail to?

    Just say so, If you are new to CMN just say so, the afterglow dies when you look into him deeper. But if you are hanging with him, then just say so…. I’ll go slow …. I can even give you most of the rebuttals he would use in these arguments.

    Your call,


  21. Jenny Lind permalink
    December 6, 2009 4:38 pm

    You ask about the “other abominations”…

    “Our advice is to stick to the word of God as found in the Bible and Book of Mormon. This sealed-not portion was a device by the devil to lure the distraught, disgruntled, and plain bored among the LDS.” by Sealed-Not

    The word of God in the Bible (tinkered with by the council at Nicea) and the B of M (admittedly the “lesser portion of the word”) says:

    “And blessed are the merciful who love others and extend to them no judgment for what they do, which is evil: for they shall obtain mercy for that which they do which is evil.” Matt 5:7 (3Nephi)

    You know…kind of like “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.

    And one more:

    “And blessed are the peacemakers who contend with no man over doctrine. Yea, these shall come to know the TRUE doctrine, and then they shall be called the children of God.” Matt 5:8

    That is the gospel of Christ, S-N, if you would like to know about “abominations” …you might wish to consider the three fingers pointing back at you by first looking at the “Man in the Mirror”.

    I’m Gonna Make A Change,
    For Once In My Life
    It’s Gonna Feel Real Good,
    Gonna Make A Difference
    Gonna Make It Right . . .

    As I, Turn Up The Collar On My
    Favourite Winter Coat
    This Wind Is Blowin’ My Mind
    I See The Kids In The Street,
    With Not Enough To Eat
    Who Am I, To Be Blind?
    Pretending Not To See
    Their Needs
    A Summer’s Disregard,
    A Broken Bottle Top
    And A One Man’s Soul
    They Follow Each Other On
    The Wind Ya’ Know
    ‘Cause They Got Nowhere
    To Go
    That’s Why I Want You To

    I’m Starting With The Man In
    The Mirror
    I’m Asking Him To Change
    His Ways
    And No Message Could Have
    Been Any Clearer
    If You Wanna Make The World
    A Better Place
    (If You Wanna Make The
    World A Better Place)
    Take A Look At Yourself, And
    Then Make A Change

    Sealed-not, people are hungry, helpless and desperate and you’re worried about a man who is preaching the same exact message as Christ to…

    “feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and bind up the wounds of the sick”

    You might wish to refresh yourself upon Matthew 25:31-46 and determine if you’re a goat on His left or a sheep on His right, which is all that really matters—that is if you believe in or practice the golden rule Jesus taught.

  22. December 6, 2009 8:18 pm

    Jenny, you resonate with the down trodden, because you’re one of them.

    Is that not how every cult leader started?


    If you are not appalled by that doctrine from the not-sealed portion, how about this one:


  23. Jenny Lind permalink
    December 6, 2009 11:32 pm

    Isn’t that what Christ said when He told someone not to call him “Master”?

    We have “chosen our God” haven’t we, S-N?

    Because which ever God you have chosen to serve— that justifies your judgment of any, without a willingness to see the beam in your own eye?

    I choose not to serve!

    If you’re going to speak as though a “voice of authority” on some book, you really should read it first (by yourself), S-N, from beginning to end…

  24. Jenny Lind permalink
    December 6, 2009 11:49 pm

    S-N, if you want to throw the word “cult” around you’d be wise to study the signs of a cult or cult leader and see how many fit the parameters of the organization (corporation) to which you pledge allegiance with your right arm, promise not to question or debate and “money change” for the privilege of entering their temples.

    Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

    1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

    2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

    3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

    4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

    5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

    6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

    7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

    8. Followers feel they can never be “good enough”.

    9. The group/leader is always right.

    10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

    Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

    1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

    2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower’s mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused–as that person’s involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

    3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as “persecution”.

    4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

    5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

    6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

    7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

    8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

    9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

    10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

    Ten signs of a safe group/leader.

    1. A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive. (let’s hear ANY OF YOU…ask Pres. Monson a Q and actually get an answer…maybe he could set up a yahoo discussion group for such things???)

    2. A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.

    3. A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.

    4. A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.

    5. A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.

    6. A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.

    7. A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.

    8. A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.

    9. A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.

    10. A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.

  25. December 7, 2009 4:49 am


    You said:

    “We have “chosen our God” haven’t we, S-N?

    Because which ever God you have chosen to serve— that justifies your judgment of any, without a willingness to see the beam in your own eye?


    “If you’re going to speak as though a “voice of authority” on some book, you really should read it first (by yourself), S-N, from beginning to end…”

    Hello? I said I read it through, from beginning to end, took notes, AND read ALL web sites AND blog AND youtube video’s – BY MYSELF.

    I am no “expert” on the book, only one of a handful of people who said, put those strange doctrine up so others can decide on them, without having to wade through the fluff.

    Btw, the “we chose our God” was referring to the pre-earth life, and so you don’t know what your talking about. Had you read the book, you would have known that.

    My referring to how cult leaders “start out” was not any acknowleding that he currently is one.

    Btw #2, I never said I was LDS, and I resent that you assume I am.


    You have not commented on the “other abominations” I mentioned before, nor have you commented how you feel with his teaching that God is “your servant forever.”


    Another doctrine from the sealed-not portion:

    “before the Father became a father, He was first an husband”

  26. Jenny Lind permalink
    December 7, 2009 6:10 pm

    You “resent” that I assume you are a Mormon?

    Then why do you mention that you’ve “read the Bible AND the B o M” and compared TSP to both because “they are the word of God”? (Please feel free to clear it up)

    I have not answered your Q because you have not mentioned anything yet, that I believe IS an “abomination”.

    The only thing I regard as a “sin” is the violation of another’s agency..

    Do you believe that God IS a respecter of persons….that to some he gives free will but to others he withholds it? To some he gives rain but to others he stops the heavens? To some he heals and others he kills. I’m sorry but I do not know or believe in that God.

    Why does the statement “before the Father became a father he was an husband first”.trip you up? (and please give me the reference) Isn’t that the natural order of things?

    “In my Father’s HOUSE are many mansions”. Where do SERVANTS live?

    In the HOUSE or the MANSION?

  27. December 7, 2009 7:42 pm

    I would like you to respond to what I asked another:

    One difference not to be overlooked in comparing Biblical prophets with Joseph and Nemelka is a visitation by God:

    “And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.” (Number 12:6)

    Joseph claimed to have a visitation by God, Nemelka did not.

  28. Jenny Lind permalink
    December 8, 2009 2:25 am

    I thought you said you’d read and looked at everything—-

    I guess you didn’t!!

  29. December 8, 2009 2:32 am

    “Prophets are fed the knowledge and understanding of the eternal plan of God. Though it has always been the same, this plan is unknown to the mortal world because of the inability of the human brain to recollect the recorded experiences in the molecules that make up our spirits. This fleshly brain is the veil through which most mortals cannot see [remember] while in mortality. The reason for this veil is so that we will have the opportunity to experience the opposite of God’s eternal plan of happiness. If we could recall everything our spirits have recorded for the eons of millenniums we have been able to record experiences on the molecular level of our gaseous spirits, we would not be able to experience the bad, because we would know better.
    Every prophet called of God to perform a specific work must be called in the exact same manner as those before him and those after him. Prophets are usually male in gender, giving life to the world through their words, while the more refined and righteous females give life to the world through the birth of a child. All prophets passed through tribulation and rebellion against God before they are called to the position. There has been only one prophet who from his birth did not rebel against God—Jesus Christ—he who could not sin because of the preprogrammed nature of his soul. To keep the rest humble and focused on the work of the Father instead of their own fleshly agendas, prophets are weakened in the flesh in many ways. Moses couldn’t speak well, and many others were small of stature and uncomely to look upon, keeping them always aware that no matter how much they are given to know, they are still nothing and equal to all other people. Before Jesus came to the people in his role as a prophet, John the Baptist preceded him. The Jews could accept John because he was uncomely dressed in camel hair, eating locust and living in the desert, but they had a harder time accepting Jesus because he was a beautiful man who dressed normally, had women following him, and ate and drank with the sinners.

    “Except for Jesus Christ, all others pass through years of refinement and preparation until each arrives through the use of his free will to an emotional state of a broken heart and a contrite spirit caused by the recognition of the wicked state in which the people of his particular culture live. Each humbles himself before God and asks for a better understanding of truth. After this time of refinement, and if the supplicant has been chosen to perform a specific work, a Celestial Being will appear and take the veil away from his eyes. The prophet Daniel explains this well:

    “ ‘And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God; Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.’ [Daniel 9:20-23]

    “In order for this understanding to take place, or the veil to be removed, a physical change must take place on a cellular level in the mortal brain of the prophet. This is done by an angel of God who has the knowledge, power, and technology to do so properly. John figuratively expresses this by showing that a voice from heaven did not actually teach him anything, but commanded him to do a physical act involving an angel. Just as one might lose substantial memory upon being struck violently in the head, thus changing the physical structure of the brain, prophets receive the ability to remember things [written in the book] by an actual physical contact by an exalted being—there is no other way to be called as a prophet of God.”

    from chapter 10 of “666 the Mark of America, Seat of the Beast” by Christopher.

  30. Getterdone permalink
    December 8, 2009 2:38 am

    Come on Jenny are you close?

    You recite Cult site’s like Rick Ross’….
    You site the MWAW works like a pro…
    You have some amount of conviction, so what gives, did you go the seminar August 29-30,09?
    You might be a high riser in his grouping so why the avoidance to my attention?

    Chris H

  31. December 8, 2009 2:58 am

    So you two work in concert?

    One is the “Sealed-not” and the other is the “Sealed-police”?

  32. Getterdone481 permalink
    December 8, 2009 3:00 am

    And for the record,

    No tag team here – I am mono a Mono

    Is it Jenny Lind or Lindon?

    Are you going to really engage or what?

    There should not be any question ever, if you want worldly recognition you should be prepared for the “diggers”. I mean every one wants to know the root of the story – right.

    This goes for Joseph, Christ, Adam, Monson, Nemelka, and those lessly grouped. The whole package is what GOD chooses right?

    He knows the beginning and end? right?

    So really then why choose Nemelka???? Have you read his City Weekly article? How about his Judicial arrest record? His Child support hearing transcripts?


    Were you at the Seminar?

    Why profess to know his so well, JL, ……..its not far from jlt ….. just silly coincidences again..

    Grow a pair, address me or stay in closet. Because really if you want to know all 5 of CMN’s emails than say so. You might as well go to him having dealt with me then having avoiding me… Your Choice but I will show your short comings now or then.

    Arise and Awake —– Julie Taggert spills this all the time so if you have the conviction she does – STAND UP.

    Lets Go!

    And if you want to start with rules, first there is the 10 Big ones.
    – One and only God……. numeral uno
    — Keep Sabbath day holy…. go 2
    — You better not take the Lord’s name in vain…..o trinity.

    You and CMN speak like you have his name tattooed on you,

    Did you take it yet, if your not LDS then not to many other marks you could get you hands on.

    Chris Marc Nemelka has more similarities to the Anti-christ in how he defiled the LDS religion and their temple then any one else in HISTORY!

    Careful Jenny penny,

    Even James Bond couldn’t save you (ever wonder why he was 007? – Do you know a carat of a diamond weighs .007 grams – James Bond = Diamond = Perfection = other than JESUS no one was perfection)


  33. Getterdone481 permalink
    December 8, 2009 3:02 am

    Can you type fast?

  34. Getterdone481 permalink
    December 8, 2009 3:13 am

    THeRe is A SImailaR story HOw the Spirt QUickenS the MiNd, you ever been? HAve SOmE expEriancing HEar tO Go?
    I woudl eb ebettre to emet uoy fisrt – U lo cal?

    Ever wonder why 2 josephs started it? Other than Bible say so?

    Do you know who the two living Josephs who will/ or could end it —– Pope’s name is Joe also with his Paps – Nazi student even… Do you read Revelations or what? GO to Wiki. Read more little one.


  35. Getterdone481 permalink
    December 8, 2009 3:28 am

    If CMN says Salt Lake City – Mormons are similar to Jerusalem – Jews.

    I agree!

    Salt lakes, fresh lakes, mountains, rivers, wilderness treks, weather, and even to this very day the attitude of the citizens!

    If Joseph needed to do much more than coddle a following into a unique demographic. He did good. Or maybe he just developed a better one.

    The silly sealed portion – Nemelka claims, it is really just his fiction – you want a one on one… I can prove it to you – really. I started down this road in his seminar, I just didn’t get much air time.

    My numbers show it clear. You ever wonder how many times Moroni used each word? In either books? – I mean if you knew would it matter?

    How open minded are you still?

    want to see the other side?


  36. December 8, 2009 4:06 am

    More obfuscation, but thank you for giving an example how the arrogance manifested all throughout the sealed-not portion.

    An explanation for everything!

    Nonetheless, hi-jacking the word of God and adding in the fashion all throughout as he does is…well, the adominations speak for themselves, and no, he did not meet the Biblical requirement of a prophet.

  37. Getterdone481 permalink
    December 8, 2009 4:13 am

    I only caught this in my upper re-review,

    If Micheal Jackson has prophetic insight to Heaven’s plan. Please define it…

    Man in the Mirror – could be interpreted many ways now days…

    That chemically unbalanced man belongs in the same mental health clinic – Christopher Marc Nemelka was sent to.

    You go talk to the parent of the kids in MJ’s bed, tell me where Heaven was guiding his life.

    Stick to one side. If you want song lyrics – say so – I am good there too. You want BoM say so, Bible, World events, or what ?

    Where are you coming from?


  38. December 8, 2009 4:19 am

    I feel like I’m having an out-of-body experience.

    Who are these people? And what do they want with us?

  39. Getterdone481 permalink
    December 8, 2009 4:22 am

    Any one what to know more about Jenny, I did…

    Just cut and paste here upper post (the one on cult qualities) into a search engine – you’ll find her I did……..

  40. December 8, 2009 4:26 am


    So Nemelka was in a mental hospital? Any information you could pass along would be appreciated. You can post on our site if you want:


  41. December 8, 2009 4:26 am

    Mormon splinter group adherents are freaky, Seth. Your religion does weird things to people.

  42. December 8, 2009 4:27 am

    I think it’s a conspiracy, Seth.

  43. Stephanie permalink
    December 8, 2009 4:28 am

    I’m convinced. I think we should all join.

  44. Getterdone481 permalink
    December 8, 2009 4:34 am

    Wait for the fun stuff…. Sealed Not

    Give me a day I’ll go get hard copies from District Court. I have already seen them. But proof like this and CMN dissolving his WUF foundation back into his sole control – these are priceless.

    Is their leader, all up front? Maybe human judging is next to get Human Realitied out? Don’t get me wrong if I stood in front in JESUS he would kick my sweet ass if I did this – so Judge as you will be right?


  45. December 8, 2009 4:36 am

    JESUS he would kick my sweet ass if I did this – so Judge as you will be right?

    Hey, no swearing on Jessica’s blog. Not even when the swear words are in the Bible and it’s Jesus who’s going to kick the offending body parts.

  46. December 8, 2009 4:57 am

    Didn’t attend the seminar, never met the man.

    The difference is I read with an open mind—yours is Sealed-Shut.

  47. Getterdone481 permalink
    December 15, 2009 2:21 am


    I went and retrieved the Court doc’s, you want a copy? They scanned pretty good to email. Let’s say for chance though you’re still sticking to the Pony Tail prophet.

    When his companies or “foundation” isn’t using its PO Box to get mail. Sometimes his actual address shows up. Here is a link a put together… It’ll take you right to the street corner where he lives …… Then you can navigate around, if you need a copy of CMN’s Press Release this address was used on I can forward it also:,+Draper+Utah&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=13275+Minuteman+Dr,+Draper,+Salt+Lake,+Utah+84020&gl=us&ei=h1EUS6fBAZP0sgPSpJiLBA&ved=0CAoQ8gEwAA&ll=40.51039,-111.890656&spn=0.000895,0.002293&z=19&iwloc=A&layer=c&cbll=40.510448,-111.890676&panoid=xpANwZAPuovzNjoZVdJZdA&cbp=12,75.23,,0,5

    I mean for CMN, it is courageous to stick to your humble vices so well, but if Heaven and God wanted you to focus on the work at hand – S pread the N ew O der of T ruth. You would think it mission sent to letting divine guidance help you into proper living conditions, work/ offices (with a real address, not a PO), and an army of followers ready to change the world.

    How about not finding Jesus’s name or God’s name on his WUF Foundation site, its easy, just use his search engine on the site – go try.

    Is this Heaven’s work, wouldn’t their name be EVERYWHERE – Forwards or Backwards. Like Evolution – most people miss EVOL its love backwards, God plants plenty of Eggs back in the past to get the right outcome, I mean he hatched it out right. SO which came first the Chicken or the Egg, seems like a perfect circle.

    Seems like CMN’s Sealed Snot isn’t right to me.

    Personal Story: Maybe one day I can tell you more of the details to how I took the “Spirit Stick” from my High School. Then we made one up and gave it back to them, held the real one for ransom.

    So many similarities to my life, just that CMN is 15 years older. And he claims to have “Joseph’s Stick” lol You know he just had a birthday 12/2/1961.

    Ok, one more. This is one of my favorites. In So.Cal, Palomar Mountain used to be called Smith Mountain – after Joseph Smith. However this Joseph lived just slightly half after – Joseph from ‘Palmyra’. This Joseph was killed for a rumored treasure, by a hired hand. But this Joseph from ‘Palomar’ was a former sailor, and on his voyages he would collect plant & tree seeds. His favorite seed to give to his friends, was from the China – the Chinese Sumac Tree – also known as the “Tree(s) of Heaven”. They grow all over the mountain now, almost like weeds now. You might say, again I really don’t buy into the LDS church beliefs but in order to swallow the Sealed Portion Pill you sort of Have to believe the beginning. SO then also again 2 Josephs two different ends of the USA – similar lives. Backup plan?

    Side notes. Palomar is Native American it means ‘Dove’s nest’. The Pechanga Reservation next door has their “mountain’ which translates to ‘God’s Forehead’. The Pechanga Reservation believe highly in the mythical ‘Tree of Life’. They have an Oak Tree over 2000+ years (expert verified). Go to their web site, even their bar in their casino is made to look like a BIG Oak tree. Funny Lehi’s Vision of the Tree of Life needed a few distinct elements to really make a POINT: Big Tree -check (southeast of casino), Iron Rod – well it is a rod iron fence protecting it, River – there is wash bed right next to it, Large Spacious Building – their casino is less than a 1/2 mile away 5 stories. Just need darkness/ mist but I think most people don’t even realize we are in it right this very day.

    Do you believe in Similarities? Coincidences? How about Synergy?

    Funny Palomar observatory on top, it is same shape as the Pantheon (Dan Brown just went there in Angels and Demons) – but Bright White (for heating/ cooling) – it looks like a temple. Built on a granite mountain. Palomar mountain is covered on all sides by natural springs. I’ll stop there, try Google Earth look around in that area – its easy to find just go to the 33′ 33′ 33.33 latitude – and go a bit south, who could of guessed that???? For the record the 200” mirror used there was the largest, sort of looking at ‘God in the Mirror’ – I mean the Universe is God’s Mind (90/10 ratio – like your brain – just in High Def.).

    See I start pouring it out, follow the 33 line. Past Salton Sea, past Roswell, over to the Sea of Galilee. Jesus was 33 – so many coincidences. Want a picture of the Oak tree – its something like 14′ dia. & over 170′ canopy dia. – it was there when Jesus visited this continent.

    Email me on the side Jenny – so much more if you really want to SEE, or anyone else. Not going to write books, no point to. Sharing freely to listening audiences works so much better – sort of like Testimony Meeting.

    And I not Sealed Shut, just fed up with false prophets with all the evidence to prove it.

    Enough I’ll leave you all alone unless asked, or directed at.


  48. Getterdone481 permalink
    December 15, 2009 2:26 am

    Paste it in your web browser,+Draper+Utah&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=13275+Minuteman+Dr,+Draper,+Salt+Lake,+Utah+84020&gl=us&ei=h1EUS6fBAZP0sgPSpJiLBA&ved=0CAoQ8gEwAA&ll=40.51039,-111.890656&spn=0.000895,0.002293&z=19&iwloc=A&layer=c&cbll=40.510448,-111.890676&panoid=xpANwZAPuovzNjoZVdJZdA&cbp=12,75.23,,0,5

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