02.16.09
Are Creedalists Christians?
MadChemist requested that we talk about the book Are Mormons Christians? by Stephen E. Robinson. For those who may not be familiar with this book, BYU professor Robinson claims that Christians exclude Mormons from Christianity based on tradition, history, and major and minor doctrinal arguments. I’d like to cut right to the heart of chapter 7 and our major doctrinal differences regarding the nature of God. Robinson claims that traditional Christian doctrines on the nature of God were formulated at the Council of Chalcedon and that unbiblical summaries were set forth in the Nicene Creed. He says LDS prefer to stick to the scriptures themselves rather than unbiblical summaries. He states,
The unsummarized Bible is fine just as it is; bring forward any creed composed entirely of scriptural passages and the Latter-day Saints will heartily affirm every word (p. 73).
So, let’s put the creeds on the chopping block and discuss the scriptures supporting the statements in them. By way of reminder, most Evangelical Christians are not necessarily familiar with the creeds and do not consider them authoritative. Those who are familiar with them, however, believe they were written primarily to defend the doctrine of the deity of Christ from the heresies of Arianism.
The following creed is copied from the Religious Researcher with the scripture citations provided in that blog. I added links to Bible Gateway for ease in referencing (one click brings up all the scriptures supporting the statement). I also added some additional scriptures for some of the statements.
The Nicene Creed (381)
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. [Matt. 23:9; Acts 4:24; 17:24; 1 Cor. 8:6a; 2 Cor. 6:18; Heb. 11:3; Rev. 21:22] – also Rom. 1:20; Col. 1:16
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ [1 Cor. 8:6b; 12:4; Eph. 4:5],
the only-begotten Son of God [John 1:12, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9],
begotten of the Father before all ages [John 1:14, 18; 5:26; 6:57; 17:5; Gal. 4:4], – also Micah 5:2
God of God [John 1:1, 18; Titus 2:10, 13; 2 Peter 1:1-2], – also Isa. 9:6; I Tim. 3:16
Light of Light [John 1:4-5; Heb. 1:3],
true God of true God [John 1:1, 18; Col. 2:9; 1 John 5:20]
begotten, not made [John 1:14, 18],
being of one substance with the Father [John 1:14; Heb. 1:3] – – also Deut 6:4; Isa. 43:10; Matt. 1:23, Mark 2:5-11, John 1:1, 18, 5:21-23, 8:57-59, 10:28-39, 14:7, 14:9-11, 20:27-29; Rom. 8:9, 9:5; Phil. 2:6, Col. 1:15-19, 2:9; I Tim. 6:14-16; Heb. 3:3-4; I John 5:7, 5:20, Jude 25, Rev 1:8-18, 22:13-16
by whom all things were made [John 1:3, 10; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2, 10];
who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven [John 13:3; 16:28],
and was incarnate [John 1:14; Rom. 8:3; 1 John 4:1]
by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary [Matt. 1:18-25; Luke 1:35],
and was made man [Phil. 2:6-7],
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate [Matt. 27; Mark 15; Luke 23; John 18-19].
He suffered [Matt. 16:21 par.; 17:12 par.; Luke 22:15; 24:26, 46; Acts 1:3; 3:18; 1 Pet. 3:18]
and was buried [Matt. 27:57-66 par.; Acts 13:29; 1 Cor. 15:4],
and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures [Luke 24:44-46; 1 Cor. 15:5],
and ascended into heaven [Acts 1:9-11],
and sits at the right hand of the Father [Mark 14:62; Luke 22:69; Acts 2:33, 34; 5:31; 7:55-56; Rom. 8:34; Eph. 1:20; Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:3, 13; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet. 3:22].
And he shall come again with glory [Matt. 16:27; Heb. 9:26-28; Titus 2:13; etc.]
to judge both the living and the dead [Matt. 25:31-46; John 5:22-23, 28-29; Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Thess. 1:7-8; Rev. 2:23];
whose kingdom shall have no end [Luke 1:33; Eph. 1:19b-21; Heb. 1:8; Rev. 11:15].
And we believe in the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19],
the Lord [2 Cor. 3:16-17]
and Giver of Life [Ps. 104:30; Ezek. 37:14; John 3:5-8; 6:63; Rom. 8:2, 6, 10-11; 2 Cor. 3:6; Gal. 5:25],
who proceeds from the Father [John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7],
who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified [Matt. 28:19; Phil. 3:3; cf. Matt. 12:31-32; Mark 3:29],
who spoke by the prophets [Acts 1:16; 28:25-27; Heb. 3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11].
And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic church [Eph. 2:18-22; 3:5-6; 4:4].
We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins [Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Eph. 4:5],
And we look for the resurrection of the dead [John 5:29; 11:24-25; Acts 4:2; 23:6; 24:15; Rom. 8:11; 1 Cor. 15; etc.],
and the life of the world to come [Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; 20:34-35; etc.].
Amen.
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So, with which of these statements do we agree? Where do we disagree? Do the cited scriptures support the statements? Are the statements on the nature of God really a less accurate reflection of the Bible’s teaching than, say, the following summary?
“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see…I am going to prove it to you by the Bible…God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man… That is the great secret. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible…and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves…In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together…to create the world and people it. When we begin to learn this way, we begin to learn the only true God, and what kind of a being we have got to worship…Now, I ask all who hear me, why the learned men who are preaching salvation, say that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing? The reason is, that they are unlearned in the things of God, and have not the gift of the Holy Ghost; they account it blasphemy in any one to contradict their idea. If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together” (Joseph Smith, 1844)
Was this summary ever really proven by the Bible? Would we be able to find as much Biblical support for it as we can for the Nicene Creed?
02.09.09
Dude, Where's My Keys?
On the previous post, faithoffathers brought up the LDS interpretation of Matthew 16:19 and said he had never heard a good explanation from evangelicals for what those keys were. Here’s his brief summary of the LDS view:
What were those keys? Christ was clearly saying that He was going to give Peter some power that had binding consequences not just in this world, but in heaven. Interesting that this binding power is discussed in the context of the gates of hell, or Sheol. This of course was the Priesthood authority which He gave to His apostles. LDS interpretation of these verse, in my opinion, is the only one that makes sense and provides the cohesive context for why these concepts are placed together. 1. Spirit of Revelation of Christ 2. Establishment of Church on a foundation 3. Keys of authority. Other interpretations break up these verses into different topics. I have heard no good explanation from evangelicals for what those “keys” were.
Once again, I looked at Peter’s understanding of this since he was there and Jesus gave the keys to him. Did Peter ever provide any clue as to his understanding of the priesthood? Actually, yes, he did! Peter does not mention these keys, however, in connection with the NT priesthood (I Peter 2:5, 9). His definition of the NT priesthood is quite different from the LDS teaching on the priesthood. He describes a spiritual priesthood that consists of all believers in Christ (including women – I Peter 3:1). He says this spiritual priesthood offers up spiritual sacrifices and consists of a spiritual house. Peter’s teaching on the NT priesthood does not mesh well with the priesthood of “modern revelation.”
The writer of Hebrews shares Peter’s understanding of the NT priesthood. He says all believers have now been given access into the holiest (God’s presence) by the blood of Jesus (Heb. 10:19-22). Formerly, this access was reserved only for the high priests once each year, in a physical temple, with the blood of animals; but through the perfect sacrifice of Christ, our Great High Priest, “it is finished” – there is no more sacrifice for sins. There is no longer any need for earthly priests to offer animal sacrifices as in OT times. The writer of Hebrews makes clear that there has been a change in the priesthood (Heb. 7:12, 18-28) and that God has taken away the OT priesthood, that He may establish the NT priesthood (Heb. 10:9-10). This priesthood includes our Great High Priest, Jesus, and all believer-priests who now have access into the holiest place which, in OT times, was restricted to only the high priest once each year. What an awesome privilege!
Back on the topic of the LDS priesthood keys, though… I ran a search on my SwordSearcher program and could not locate the word key or keys connected with either the OT or NT priesthood. So I’m confused regarding the assertion that the most logical explanation for the keys is that they refer to the LDS concept of priesthood authority. In looking at the larger context of scripture, keys do not appear to have anything to do with the priesthood.
In pondering for myself the origin of “the keys” as understood in Mormonism, I sensed a possible spiritual connection that I would like to explore further… I’m seeking any insight/knowledge on this. I noticed that the Masonic Dictionary refers to Matt. 16:19 when defining the symbolism of “The Key” in Freemasonry. According to the dictionary, “’The Key’ is one of the most important symbols of Freemasonry…the key has been adopted as the official jewel of the Treasurer of a Lodge, because he has the purse, the source of power, under his command.”
According to information from a former Mason[1], “Freemasonry claims to be the repository for the Keys necessary to enter into that Grand Lodge Above, where God dwells. To be admitted, you must join the Brotherhood, learn the secrets of Freemasonry (the secret handshakes, secret tokens, and secret words), and become more and more virtuous.” – Wait a second! Freemasonry holds the keys?
2
I thought it was Mormonism. Which is it? More importantly to consider, perhaps, who had the symbol of the keys first? I think this is important when we consider the worldview of Joseph Smith when he offered up this “modern revelation” of Matt. 16:19 and the keys. This might not be all that original of an interpretation. Joseph Smith was raised in a Masonic family, after all, and became a Master Mason just a few months prior to introducing the LDS endowment ceremony [3, 4] which bears striking similarities to the Masonic initiation [5, 6, 7]. Just a few months later, Smith instructed LDS Church leaders ‘in the principles of and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments, and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood…. [emphasis mine]’” (History of the Church, vol. 5, pg. 1, May 4, 1842).
So, if we set aside the Masonic lenses for a moment, what were these keys for “according to the scriptures”? The passage actually defines for us what they were for. They are the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Isn’t a key an instrument for opening something? And wasn’t Peter used by God to open the doors of the kingdom of heaven by being the first one to preach the gospel to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles? (Acts 2:1-41, 3:12-4:21, 10:1-11:18) And weren’t all the disciples given the power of binding and loosing (Matt. 18:18)? There is never any indication by Peter of holding any special authority besides being an apostle (I Pet. 1:1) and an elder (I Pet. 5:1). He never claimed to be a pope or to hold a priesthood office of the Masonic/Mormon variety. The writer of Hebrews, in describing the qualifications for the Melchizedek priesthood, actually limits the membership of this office to Christ alone (Heb. 7:3, 26-28) of which the OT king of Salem (Melchizedek) was a type (Heb. 7:1-2; Gen. 14:18-20).
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References:
2. photo was hijacked from this site
3. Masonic Ritual and the Nauvoo Temple Endowment
4. Freemasonry and the Latter Day Saint Movement
6. Masonic Ritual in the Temple Ceremony
7. Similarity of Priesthood in Masonry: The Relationship Between Freemasonry and Mormonism
