10.30.08
Joseph Smith Knew More Than Christ?
I am posting Berean’s studies here with his permission.
Prophecy Studies in the D & C
by Berean
The Mormon Church claims to have a modern day prophet and the Church boasts in having modern day revelation since the living oracles (modern day prophets) take precedence over the written scriptures. One sure way to test whether one is a prophet or not is to test the revelations they gave and see if it measures up to the test that God gave man to test a so-called prophet.
One of the most sought after questions among believers and otherwise revolves around when Christ will return. Many abstract religions and cults have made the dreadful mistake of predicting the return of Christ. The most notorious for making this mistake are the Jehovah’s Witnesses. After their last blunder in setting the date for 1975 in which they lost many members when the prophecy didn’t happen, the Watchtower organization is now more hesitant in making that assertion. Just making that prediction or statement even once forever rules out that so-called religion being credible and the leader of that religion (prophet) should be ignored from that point on.
What does this have to do with Mormonism? This issue of the Second Advent is a biggie with the Mormons. It may not be now, but it was in the past and it especially was with Joseph Smith. It was so important to him that he brought the subject up in the D&C and in other LDS historical writing.
In D&C 130:14-17 Joseph Smith is supposedly given revelation as to the return of Christ because he was “praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man.” Joseph was asking for information that even Jesus didn’t know at that time in His earthly ministry (Matthew 24:36). In D&C 130:14 Joseph “heard a voice”. The identity of that “voice” is never identified which is suspicious (see 1 John 4:1). We read in D&C 130:15 that this “voice” tells Joseph that “IF thou livest until thou are eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man”. If Joseph Smith would have been knowledgeable of Bible texts such as:
1 John 4:1
1 Thes 5:21
Acts 17:10-11
Matthew 24:36
Deut 18:22
then he wouldn’t have made the “rookie prophet” mistake not only once, but twice, of getting involved in this Satanic trap of planning out the return of Christ. In D&C 130:17 Joseph Smith tells us that “the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.” How does he know that? Jesus could have returned an hour after Joseph Smith wrote that. Christ is not bound by what Joseph Smith says. By Joseph Smith saying that he indirectly was date setting – not saying when Christ would return, but that Christ was going to hold off until Joseph Smith was at least 85 years old.
The details of D&C 130:14-17 are very specific numbers and definitely conflict with Matthew 24:36. The “IF” in D&C 130:15 is puzzling because it paints the Mormon god as being unsure how long Joseph Smith would live. Almighty God knows how long we all are going to live and wouldn’t engage in this type of dialogue or give half-answers because He never did in the Old or the New Testament. What D&C 130 doesn’t rule out are all those Mormons who would live should Joseph Smith not make it to his 85th birthday. All Mormons would have to have done back then was add up when Joseph Smith would have turned 85 and then stand outside and expect the Savior to return based on what Joseph Smith said. Since Joseph Smith didn’t make it to his 85th, that doesn’t mean all the Mormons would die with Joseph Smith and not be around later at that time.
This revelation in D&C 130 was written in April 1843 when Joseph Smith was 37 years old. Let’s do some math: 85 years old subtract 37 (present age) leaves 48 years remaining. Add 48 years to 1843 and we have the year 1891. What is significant about this year?
Joseph Smith gave a similar revelation in Kirtland, Ohio on February 14, 1835 “because God commanded it, and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit.” He stated that Christ would return in 56 years (History of the Church, Vol.2, page 182). Add 56 years to 1835. What do you get? Lo and behold – it’s 1891 – the same year as the 1843 revelation! The D&C 130 revelation matches the one in 1835. They were both wrong. Look again at the source of Joseph Smith’s information in the 1835 revelation: it was by vision and by the Holy Spirit; God commanded it. That is a very powerful statement. There is no guessing here who the “voice” is in this revelation compared to the one in D&C 130. Again, if Joseph Smith would have looked at his Bible he would have known that this contradicts what God had already revealed and therefore this “revelation” couldn’t be from Almighty God, but rather a false spirit.
Deut 18:22 says that Joseph Smith is a false prophet completely just on this fact alone not to mention him contradicting scripture in Matthew 24:36. The LDS Manual “Preparing for Exaltation” states on page 85:
“God will never give personal revelation that contradicts what has already been revealed in scriptures.”
10.26.08
What Is the LDS Standard For Discerning Between Spirits?
I have recently been in conversation with some LDS bloggers on the topic of modern revelation. One of the bloggers expressed concern when I brought up the issue of demonic spirits having the ability to masquerade as deity or angels of light. He pointed out that if this were true how could anyone be sure that their personal revelations were of God?
He expressed precisely the concern that evangelicals have regarding the place of revelation in LDS theology. The contention of evangelicals has consistently been that modern revelation should not be exactly backwards from previous revelation. If it is, we believe it is coming from another source since the Bible warns us not to receive “another gospel” or “another Jesus” (Gal. 1:6-9, II Cor. 11:3) and we are told that Satan will try to counterfeit the true.
“Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).
Joseph Smith knew about revelations from another source. When a prophecy he made didn’t come true, he returned to his seer stone to seek another revelation and was told “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, chapter 4). I happen to agree with this revelation (whatever source it came from) because it lines up with what we are taught in the Bible which is my standard for discerning truth from error / God from Satan.
The Bible says, “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?” (Jer. 17:9)
For this reason, I don’t rely on feelings for a standard of discerning truth since my heart can deceive me. I trust Christ’s promise that He would preserve His words and I take His example that He never questioned the reliability of the OT scriptures when He was on earth, but He treated them as true, factual history and authoritative. Some LDS have told me that they use the Bible for their standard or that they don’t see a contradiction between the Bible and modern revelations so I will list a few examples of what I am talking about here and hopefully get some responses from LDS on how they reconcile what appear to me as diametrically opposed theology.
For example, the Bible says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9)
BoM: “it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23)
The Bible: “And He said unto me, ‘My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me” (2 Corinthians 12:9)
BoM: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you…” (Moroni 10:32)
The Bible: “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8)
BoM: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (Alma 11:37)
The Bible: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us…that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5)
Apostle Spencer Kimball: “However good a person’s works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else’s sins. And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 207).
What are the “works of the gospel” according to Jesus?
“Then they said unto Him, ‘What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?’ Jesus answered and said unto them, ‘This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent’” (John 6:29)
***Note: Before someone responds with James 2, I am not saying we can claim to have faith and then not manifest the works that should accompany true faith. James was written to address this specific problem as people were claiming the name of Christ, but in their works they denied Him.
10.19.08
Did the Great Apostasy Occur Earlier Than Mormonism Estimates?
The LDS church teaches that there was a total apostasy after the death of the apostles. The Bible never prophesied a “total” apostasy. Rather, Jesus promised to always be with His followers “to the end of the world” (Matt. 28:20) and He promised the gates of hell would not prevail against the church (Matt. 16:18). Apostasy was predicted for “the latter days” (T Tim 4:1, II Timothy 3:1), but never a “total” apostasy.
I find a lot of evidence that we are in such a time right now when apostasy is everywhere – we can see this with the many “health & wealth” prosperity preachers on TV and with the increase of a variety of heretical sects and religions everywhere – many which started forming in the 1800s.
However, a belief in The Great Apostasy after the death of the apostles appears necessary for the LDS church since the teachings unique to Mormonism cannot be found in the NT or other historical documents from the 1st century.
Since none of the apostles or NT leaders were ever ordained into the Aaronic and Melchizidek priesthoods, it appears the apostasy might have been even earlier than Mormonism proposes.
10.09.08
Is a "Correct" View of Jesus Christ Central to Salvation?
I was having a conversation with an LDS blogger regarding whether one’s view of Christ is central to salvation. She said she didn’t think it is possible to have a “perfect” understanding of anything and that Christ saves us even if our understanding of Him is limited by the frailties of mortality.
I completely agree that our understanding is limited and we may never have a “perfect” understanding of anything, but I think some basic understandings are essential for saving faith in the true Christ.
Jesus said, “If ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins” (John 8:24). He declares again in John 8:58 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I AM” (claiming the Divine name of YHWH as used in Ex. 3:14)
So, we see from John 8:24 that a belief in Christ as the eternal YHWH of the Old Testament is central to our salvation.
Now, Mormonism teaches that Jesus = YHWH and God the Father = Elohim.
Jews, who faithfully study the OT, and Christians who study OT and NT do not see YHWH and Elohim as different gods. They are both divine names for one God.
“Hear, O Israel: YHWH our Elohim is one YHWH” (Deut. 6:4).
“Thus saith YHWH the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no Elohim” (Isaiah 44:6).
“I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside me” (Isaiah 45:5)
“For thy Maker is thine husband; YHWH of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; the Elohim of the whole earth shall he be called” (Isaiah 54:5).
God said to the Son “Thy throne, O Elohim, is for ever and ever” (Psalm 45:6; Hebrews 1:8-9)
“Therefore Elohim, thy Elohim , hath anointed thee…” (Psalm 45:7; Hebrews 1:9)
YHWH is God’s personal name and was revealed after His name Elohim according to His nature of progressive self-revelation. Jews who do not believe in Jesus still hold to a firm belief in one God as declared throughout the Old Testament. This is part of their reason for not believing that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. However, Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called “the mighty God” and “the everlasting Father” (Isaiah 9:6).
Those who believe Jesus fulfilled the OT Messianic prophecies are left with how to reconcile the fact that He claimed to be the one true God of the OT. I do not see how Mormonism reconciles the one God doctrine taught throughout the scriptures (Isaiah 44:6-8; Deut 4:35, 39; Mark 12:29; Rom. 3:30; Eph. 4:5-7; I Tim. 2:5; James 2:19).
Maybe someone could shed some light on this for me.
Based on John 8:24, it appears our salvation IS dependent on whether or not we believe what Jesus has declared concerning Himself or if reject what He Himself has declared as the truth because of an allegiance to the teachings of men.
10.06.08
Joseph Smith's Place in Biblical Prophecy
Mormonism teaches that God revealed Himself in the 1800s to a young man named Joseph Smith so that the true gospel could be restored to the earth. They teach that prior to the 1800’s the true gospel had become perverted and God did not preserve a remnant of true Christians from the 1st century AD until the 1800s. They teach that the Mormon temple rituals and divergent teachings regarding sin, salvation, the nature of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are original, restored Christianity and that the rest of professing Christians are part of the apostate church.
I would like to examine this incredible claim in light of the divine revelation that Mormons and Christians both agree is from God: “the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 3:15).
Serious students of the Bible can see that God has revealed Himself throughout history so that we can know how He works and can discern His revelations in our time in order to avoid falling prey to the deception of the false prophets that Jesus promised would come in the last days (Matt. 24:11).
A quick review of Biblical prophecy reveals that the OT made specific predictions concerning the Messiah so that those who were studying the Scriptures were expectantly waiting and ready when Christ arrived (Luke 2:25-38). The exact timing of the Messiah’s coming was predicted and fulfilled on the exact day it was prophesied in the book of Daniel. The OT had ended by declaring the next thing on God’s calendar: the coming of a prophet (Malachi 4:5) who would prepare the way for the coming of the Messiah (Isaiah 40:3). Jesus declared that this prophecy was fulfilled by John the Baptist (Matt. 11:14).
During Jesus’ ministry, the authority of Scripture was emphasized. Jesus did not question the reliability of the OT scriptures. He said “scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35) and emphasized His power to keep and preserve His words (Mark 13:31). He treated the OT as a literal history (Matt. 24:37-39) and told the Sadducees their beliefs were in error because they did not know the Scriptures (Matt. 22:29-32). He scolded His disciples for not believing all that the prophets had spoken in the OT and then He proceeded to expound to them “in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself” (Luke 24:25-27).
We see Jesus’ example of a high view of Scripture continued with the early Christians in the book of Acts. The apostle Apollos is described as a man who was “mighty in the Scriptures” (Acts 18:24). He “mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, showing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ” (Acts 18:28). Paul declared that “all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (II Timothy 3:16) and the Bereans were commended for checking his teachings against the OT scriptures (Acts 17:11). The Bible calls their method of scripture study “noble.”
After the coming of the Messiah, a pronounced change is described in Scripture concerning the dealings of God with man. We catch a hint of the change early in Jesus’ ministry when He said:
“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” (Matthew 11:13-15).
The indication that the dispensation of the prophets was ending is made even more clear in Hebrews 1:1-2:
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds”
Did you catch the change noted in this inspired piece of Scripture? Remember, Jesus rebuked the disciples for not believing ALL of the scriptures. This scripture clearly states that God spoke “in time past” by the prophets, but in these last days by His Son.
Peter says the same thing in II Peter 1:20-21: “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” Peter contrasts the prophecy which came “in old time” by the OT prophets with “a more sure word of prophecy” which we now have because of the personal revelation of Christ Himself and the eyewitness accounts of His life, death, and resurrection (II Peter. 1:18-19).
At the very end of the apostle John’s prophecy he writes this: “If any man add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book” (Rev. 22:18).
We will now consider how the prophet Joseph Smith, following in the example of Christ and the apostles, expounded upon Scripture to reveal the prophecies in previous scriptures that spoke about him and how he demonstrated from the scriptures that he was prophesied to come and restore the true gospel to the earth:
“There are many things in the Bible which do not, as they now stand, accord with the revelations of the Holy Ghost to me.” (Joseph Smith, Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith’s Teachings, edited by Larry E. Dahl and Donald Q.Cannon)
“I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 327)
Did Joseph Smith read ALL of the previous scriptures as Jesus commanded His disciples to do? Was he “mighty in the scriptures” like Apollos? Was he able, like Apollos, to “mightily convince” people “from the scriptures”??
Or do we notice a divergence from the Biblical model of revelation? Do we see a shift in view concerning the authority and reliability of the Bible? Joseph Smith is not proving the new revelation from the previous revelation. He’s getting rid of the old revelation to introduce the new. This is a departure from the Biblical model and all serious students of the scriptures notice the striking change.
Following Joseph Smith’s example, other Mormon leaders have made similar comments regarding the Bible:
“The Bible has been robbed of its plainness; many sacred books having been lost, others rejected by the Romish Church, and what few we have left, were copied and re-copied so many times, that it is admitted that almost every verse has been corrupted and mutilated to that degree that scarcely any two of them read alike.” (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 213.)
“Many insertions were made, some of them ’slanted’ for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated.” (Apostle Mark Petersen, As Translated Correctly, p. 4.)
But I thought Jesus said “scripture cannot be broken” and He promised to preserve His words… Who are we trusting here? Jesus or Joseph Smith/other Mormon leaders?
As I stated earlier in the post, the OT had ended with the next prophecy on God’s calendar: the coming of the prophet “Elijah” (John the Baptist) who would prepare the way for the coming of the Messiah. We see the NT ends in a similar way. The book of Revelation ends with the apostle John looking ahead to the next thing on God’s prophetic calendar: the coming of Jesus Christ.
Where does Joseph Smith fit in here?
The only prophecy I can find that he fulfilled is in Matthew 24:11 where Jesus said that in the last days “Many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.”
References:
http://www.mormonchallenge.com/ref_quotes.htm
10.02.08
If Mormons Are Christians, Then Am I A Mormon?
I just updated my bio page to add a little more info about my personal beliefs. I thought I’d post them here as well and ask you to evaluate these questions as you review my beliefs. Do these coincide with Mormon beliefs? Since Mormons claim they are Christians, then am I a Mormon?
I am a follower of Jesus Christ, my Lord and my God (John 20:28), who is the Son of the Most High, One and Only, true God (Isa. 43:10, 44:6-8), who was in the beginning with God (John 1:1), and through whom all things were created, including Satan and the angels (Col. 1:16-19). He is my personal Savior, my righteousness and justification, my only hope, the One I worship and adore, and my very best friend. I hold to a firm belief in Jesus Christ and His promises in the Bible. I trust His promise that He will preserve His words (Luke 21:33) and so I read His words daily and seek to obey everything He has commanded, including His command to not believe the words of false prophets (Matt. 24:11, 23-26).
He said we can know false prophets by their fruits (Matt. 7:15-20), so after I examined the life, teachings, and fruits of the man Joseph Smith, I discerned that he was a false prophet and I do not embrace his heretical teachings regarding God being an exalted man, Jesus Christ being the spirit brother of Lucifer, humans possessing intelligence that is coequal with God’s, etc.
I believe I am a being created by God (Col 1:16), I am a sinner (Romans 3:10-12) without hope of salvation apart from the atonement of Jesus Christ which was accomplished on the cross of Calvary (I Peter 2:24). I obey Jesus Christ, not out of fear of not making it into His presence, but because I know I am saved and will spend eternity with Him (I John 5:13, II Cor. 5:8). I am trusting in Jesus Christ alone, apart from works, for my salvation (Romans 4:4-5) and resting on His promise to save me (John 3:16).
I believe that all our fleshly efforts to make ourselves worthy are as “filthy rags” in God’s sight (Isaiah 64:6, Gal. 2:21) and our only hope for salvation is by submitting ourselves to the righteousness of God (Romans 10:3) which is by faith in Jesus Christ (Gal. 2:16).
Because I truly believe His promises are true, I believe He will return again (looks to be very soon if you study end-times prophecy!) and I believe He will reward us according to what we have done by faith and in the power of His Spirit and not in our flesh (Hebrews 11:6, I Cor. 3:10-15). I desire to please Him and obey Him because I love Him and am eternally grateful for what He has done to save a wretched sinner like me.
So, am I a Mormon?
